The None to Run Podcast

I'm Mark Kennedy, and this is the Healthinomics podcast episode 30 with guest Shannon Thompson. Welcome back, everybody. What's up? As always, thanks for listening. If you're new to the Healthinomics podcast, this is typically an interview based show where I talk to some of the best minds in running From coaches to physiotherapists to nutritious and even the athletes themselves.

And if you listened to the podcast before, thanks for coming back. Before we get to today's interview with Shannon Thompson, I wanna let you know about my none to run challenge. The next challenge starts on 04/01/2017. The challenge is a great way to get motivated, get support, and to help you make running a habit. And there's some great prizes to be given away like free running shoes, t shirts, strength training gadgets, and lots of other cool running gear.

I want to challenge you to throw long distances and fast paces out the window. One month, five runs of five minutes or more per week. Are you in? Go to nonetorun.com/challenge to start up. That's n0net0run.com/challenge Onto today's interview with Shannon Thompson.

Shannon is both an athlete and a coach. She completed in the equestrian sport of three day eventing for fifteen years like a triathlon but on a horse. Then she got interested in the sport of running and has raced distances from 800 meters to ultra trail events. An interest in the psychology of achievement led her to completing an undergraduate degree in psychology and a master's in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. Through Hypo two Sport and B78 Coaching Shannon now coaches athletes in several different sports to improve their performance.

In this episode we talk about how to approach setting goals for your running, how to get the best out of any run, how to combat negative thoughts so you can run feeling energized and motivated, ways to become a more patient runner, how to enhance your mental toughness, how to develop a game plan for every run or race, the importance of mindfulness, strategies to help you cope and come back from an injury or setback, Shannon's recommended books, and much much more. The show notes for this episode will be at Healthenomics.com/thirty. There you'll also be able to download the transcript for the episode. Enjoy the show everybody. Welcome to the Healthinomics Podcast.

Boosting your health and fitness IQ one episode at a time. And now your host, Mark Kennedy. Welcome to Healthinomics Podcast, Shannon.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah. No problem. Excited to talk. As I mentioned, to you earlier in some emails and our pre chat, my focus is on helping runners, mostly beginner runners or people who are just getting back into it. So I'm really excited to to dive into some topics, that you're an expert in.

So I like to start off most of my chats with, having the guest, tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, sort of where you grew up, went to university, your history with running, and then what you're up to now.

Sure. Sure. Well, I grew up in Vancouver, British Columbia. And actually, this might be surprising in that I I actually spent the most most of my youth up until I was about 29, riding horses professionally, which is quite a lot quite a lot different than running. I competed in a sport called three day eventing, which is kind of like a horse triathlon, and I I rode professionally and coached until I was well, coached into my early thirties, but I changed my focus from being an athlete to to psychology when I was 29.

And and then I basically was eager to become a real adult. So, for reasons I don't know now, but no, I, I went to I did my undergrad pretty much as quickly as possible, through Thompson Rivers University. I did a bachelor's, degree in psychology through Thompson Rivers and the reason for Thompson Rivers was they allowed for a lot of work to be done online and it also allowed for, other universities courses to be applied to their degree. So, I did I went through Toms Rivers, but I used Simon Fraser University, Langara College, as well to comprise my degree. And then I attended the University of Pennsylvania, which is in Philadelphia, and I did a Master's in Applied Positive Psychology, which is basically the science of human flourishing and high achievement.

And then I graduated a year and a half ago from Penn, and now I work in Flagstaff, Arizona. I do a lot for Northern Arizona University, which is a division one school down here, and I cover about 10 sports here. And, yeah. And then I do work for a company called Hypo2 Sport, which handles altitude training camps for international teams. And as you might know, Flagstaff is very much a hotbed for endurance athletes because it's at 7,000 feet.

So it's a real neat spot to to spend time around elite runners. It's the other runners and swimmers are probably the primary clientele at HypoTube. And, and then as far as my own background in running, I I started distance running when I was about 22. And I I started because I'd always loved running and I was really going through a tough patch with equestrian. And I had friends who were runners and a boyfriend who was a runner.

And, so it was just encouraging me to do something I think I'd always wanted to do. And I I have had a couple of coaches over the years and I've I I would say I've always been a hardworking amateur. You know, it was always import it was my running was important to me. I think from having been a serious athlete in another sport, that's kind of how I knew how to do sport. But you know, I never became an I've never become an elite runner or anything like that, but I have worked hard at it and raced anywhere from 800 meters up to long trail stuff and I ran my first marathon this year.

So, I've got a fair bit of experience on road track and trail now. And, I just it is I just love it and keep I keep working at my running now. That's I guess my primary, my I hate calling it a hobby. I feel like it's I feel like it's more important to me than a hobby, but, you know, compared to a lot of the elites that I work with, I really have to call it that because what I do doesn't does not that what I put into it does not measure what they put into it. So it's a it's a terrific meaningful activity for me.

Let's call it that.

Yeah. It's all it's all in perspective. Right? Yep. Well, that's great.

Well, thanks for giving us a bit of that background. Just a few little follow-up questions just from what I heard there. How did you get interested so much in the psychology end of things?

Well, as a as a competitor and as a coach in equestrian sport, interestingly, equestrian sport is a very technical sport which, unless you spend some time in it, it might be a little bit surprising. And it's also a very mental sport. Again, perhaps surprising unless you spend some time in it. So I really did as an athlete and as a coach witness the power of the mind over performance. And as someone who performance was very meaningful for, It was fascinating to me how the mind could impact performance and I realized that if I could help athletes direct their mind in a helpful way, I really could help them seek the performances that they're seeking.

And you said you you work with quite a a wide range of different athletes. Is there any particular groups of athletes that you really like working with? Any particular sport?

I definitely I always call the runners my passion project. I think because myself, I am a runner, so that's probably largely to do with it. I I also find runners I like their they're kind of stereotypically, let's say quiet and complex, and I enjoy trying to figure them out. So so I'd say runners are yeah, let's call runners my passion project. Another group that I really find fun are divers.

We have a group of divers here at NAU, and, their personalities are very different from from runners. They're they're a bit more light I would say that they can be a bit more light hearted, and I do find it fascinating how they can be afraid every day in practice and do the things that they do. Like it they really do deal with fear every day. So I would say after the runners, the divers perhaps are a favorite.

Oh, that's cool. And Yeah. Which you said you you just ran your first marathon recently. Which marathon did you run?

I run I run the Philadelphia Marathon.

Oh, cool. How was that?

It was wonderful because I went to school in Philadelphia, so I have a real attachment to it. And, I retraining leading up to it wasn't great because I had I was sick for quite a while actually and I wasn't going to race. And then I just thought, oh man, I don't wanna waste, I don't wanna wait another whole year to run a marathon. So I I have other things I like to do in the spring and the summer, and I and I really wanted to to raise my first marathon in Philly. So, it was not the time I would have wanted, but I was very committed to running a smart race because if I work in sports psychology, I have to run a smart race.

So, I was happy with how I ran the race, and it was so that made it a great experience. And I hope it bodes well for future marathons. I hope it sets me up.

Yeah.

I thought I guess is what I wanna say.

Yeah. They always say I guess that that first marathon, I've only done two but anyways, the first one it was like a real sort of experiment. You're just happy to do it. And then the second one is like, okay, you kind of you just know what to expect. And, yeah, I just found for the second one, you know, it's not that I was fitter.

I was just much better prepared, knew what to expect, and and then smarter as a result as well. So, anyways, congrats for doing your your first marathon.

Thanks. Thanks.

So as I mentioned, I wanna dive into some topics that you're an expert in for beginner runners. And I know for a lot of beginners that I hear or get emails from, it's not necessarily always the running that holds them back from, making running a part of their life. It's the mental aspect they struggle with. So, anyways, that'll be our focus for today's chat. And in doing a little bit of research on your work, I I just wanna focus in on a few, different areas of the mental aspect and feel free to to to add in whatever information you want.

But the first being, just in doing a bit of research on your website, is preparation. And that, I guess, involves, you know, perhaps maybe goal setting for people, you know, they're starting a program. How does the whole goal setting process work and what are some tips that these, runners can, approach goal setting to, help them prepare to become sort of consistent runner and a runner for life?

Yeah. No, that's a great that's a great question. When it comes to when it comes to goal setting for running, I always I always I recommend gaining the insight from a running coach if possible or somebody who is very knowledgeable about the about training, but how that can be done safely, keeping you injury free, and could who can help you choose a goal that's realistic and it'll be satisfying, like, so that would always be my first bit of advice for somebody who is is looking, to set goals with running. I feel like so I'll quickly touch on, I'm going to touch on goal setting a little bit, but I think I might have a slightly a slight slight sidetrack that might be even more useful when it comes to preparation that might be more, slightly different for people to hear about, but I think is really interesting. So so I always you always encourage people to set goals based upon the acronym SMART, which I think many people have heard before.

So that means choosing goals that are specific, measurable, action oriented, realistic, and time bound. Because it's a goal like saying, just want to be a better runner. Oh, it's a great goal. We tend to make greater progress if we are specific, measurable, it's realistic, and if we set ourselves a deadline for it. That those would be some guidelines for for setting goals.

And then I guess the other tip I would say about setting goals are if you if you pick a goal that at first might seem like a little bit of a stretch, if you can create some some small stepping stone goals on route to that goal, all of a sudden it doesn't seem like such a stretch and that can that can be a way to help you to to actually attain some of these larger goals. What I what I really emphasize though when it comes to preparation is figuring out what kind of a focus you want to have during important parts of your of your runner or of your race. Now I should ask you, are we should we be talking racing here or should is this mostly training or

It could be a bit of both. I mean, some people might be training, perhaps for their first five or 10 k, but, you know, the focus maybe not necessarily on just performance, but perhaps just getting the you know, having the mental aptitude to to do all their training and and be able to, you know, accomplish these goals. So, I mean but some of them obviously yeah. Some of these people, that to to listen for sure, they're doing some races.

I'll tell you my general my general philosophy on getting the best out of any run. So our physical body is closely related to our brain, obviously, regarding anything that we do. And I think as runners, we're always looking for the most positive, enjoyable experience while still pushing our boundaries and getting fitter. I think that probably describes most runners, whether you're competitive or you're not competitive. Now, I think an experience that we can all relate to no matter what level of a runner you are is that of feeling fatigued enough you don't know that you can complete a distance or hit a specific time in a race.

And one of the wonderful challenges of running, of course, is is kind of that moment of challenging yourself and get in and kind of rising perhaps to being a little tougher or a little braver than you maybe thought you could be. I think that's one of the real rewards of running and one of the real, wonderful challenges of it. And we all I think often want to want to run faster and farther typically. So one thing to understand is that the brain is very closely related to the body when it comes to its ability to perform and its willingness to perform. And our stress system plays a large role in whether our brain will allow our body to continue to perform at a certain level or even work harder, you know, like in a race.

So the more we can keep our mind in a positive orientation, the more or a relaxed or neutral orientation, the more likely our body is going to be able to continue to maintain a pace or an effort or even increase that that pace or effort. So I always I try to give athletes methods to maintain that positive or at least neutral and relaxed perspective. And the other interesting thing about our brain is that it tends to remember what we repeatedly do. So, if we run frequently and we are always out there like in that moment when we're working really hard and we're always out there thinking to ourselves, yeah, this is what I signed up for like I am this this just hurts and this is hard, but I'm improving and this is improving my life. Like if we create a if we think that consciously regularly, we'll develop neural pathways that will make it easier and easier for us to think that in the future.

Whereas if we approach running and we you know we start to get tired and we start to get fearful and negative and dread it and hate it and start to think horrible thoughts about ourselves, we will create neural pathways that'll make it easier for us to think that way. Kinda got me like we, it's important what we think because the more we think of any given thing, the more likely we are to think at the next time. Does that make sense?

Yeah, totally makes sense to me. I'm just thinking my own training, for instance, like, you know, I've definitely gone on runs where, you know, it's I'm running at a a challenging pace and you're like, yeah, it's hard, but, yeah, you you feel good about it because you're sweating, you're breathing hard, you're burning off some stress, and you know you're gonna get some gains of it. And then on the flip side, I've had runs where, yeah, I get out there and I'm not holding the pace I think I should be holding, and you think I'm not fit enough. I'm yeah. You're you're dreading the rest of the run.

So, I mean, I I've also had those same feelings within the same run. So are those two different feelings?

Yeah. Definitely. That happens. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think I think what we often don't realize is that if we if we if we cave to those negative feelings, you basically become better at feeling negative feelings, you know, and they come more often and they come more regularly. So like if I'm a like back if I think back to my to my marathon, I was I believed that for my first marathon that I was going to lay down the mental scaffolding regarding how my brain was going to see marathons based upon how I chose to run that marathon and how I chose to to experience it while I was out there. So so when it comes to preparation this is and this is what I believe this is what I believe for all well basically honestly all experience that if we talk if we talk about running all all runs and all races so, what I do with the athletes that I work with and this is relevant no matter what level you're at is, I advise them to look ahead at the run or the race that they're planning to do and anticipate like where where they might need to have a planned focus so that when they if they encounter a little bit of struggle, they have a plan for what they're going to think about while they're struggling because because we can if we have if we're prepared in advance with what we're going to think about and we are diligent and we work really hard at maintaining a helpful focus, while we're out running especially when we're running at a level that's a higher exertion, we'll train our brain to see that moment of higher level exertion in a certain way so that we get better and better and better at it, you know.

So we're likely to see we're likely to see greater progress and we're less likely to have a real catastrophic day if we're very diligent and we we in advance plan we're going to think plan what we're going to think about in a given moment and then we diligently keep that focus and say to ourselves what we plan to say to ourselves while we're out there. That that is primarily what I mean by preparation is looking ahead to the to the run of the race and having a plan for what you're gonna think about in key moments and, you and practicing using that focus in key moments during training, or during every run. Is it is, yeah, that that's primarily what I mean by preparation.

That's great. And, just a question. So to retarget those thoughts when you're maybe some negative thoughts come in your mind, how do you how do you retarget those thoughts to something positive? Or, like, do you have, like, a a mantra you would maybe repeat to yourself? Or, are you just, you know, like what's what's the process of what do you how are you retargeting your thoughts there?

Yeah. No, that's a that's a good question. So it's important to come up with it's it's important to come up with what at least you're gonna try in advance because when we're struggling, it's much harder to think of something positive. Like, in fact, it's not it's like if we're struggling, science has shown our ability to think positive thoughts is actually impaired. So we wanna we wanna think about this in advance.

That's one of the key things. So one way that I've done this with athletes is, so I'll sit down with them beforehand and we break down. Usually it's it's a race we break down, into into thirds or quarters and I'll talk in thirds in this case. So a prime example would be the first third of someone's run -in advance they decide they're going to be patient. So what I mean by that is like one classic problem that runners often have is they go out too fast too soon.

So, so one real common thing is that runners are all going to be patient in the first third of their run of their race, which means typically means for them they're going a little slower than they think they need to. Like they're truly being patient and waiting before they put forward, a lot of effort. Then the second the second third of their run again in advance, plan that they're going to be grateful. They plan that they're going to be grateful for something. Now for some people that is, grateful for the the ability to be out running.

Maybe it's grateful. Maybe it expands beyond running. Maybe it's grateful for their family. Maybe it's grateful for their pet. Maybe it's grateful for their running partner.

Maybe it's the beautiful place they live. That one you know it's got to be something that feels genuine to that person. But, gratitude is a positive emotion that's related to love and, love actually when we're in love, the part of our brain responsible for pain and fear is inhibited. So that's why I often use gratitude, for runners because if you can feel gratitude while you're out there, you you know, the bit of a performance enhancer or it could be a bit of a performance enhancer or make the experience, a whole lot easier on you. And then one of the key things is you said like, well, how do we make ourselves be positive?

And in that moment, like in that moment when you're you're choosing to see things a certain way, you're choosing to think grateful thoughts as opposed to thoughts that are about how much this hurts, how unfit you are, how much slurry you are than so and so, you know, those are these are real common thoughts. It actually can be a bit of a fight. Like, it can be a real fight to to keep thinking those thoughts. But the important thing is to commit and to fight it out. Like, fight it out.

Find to be grateful for. Do not let yourself slide because if you slide back you into the negative thoughts, just practice that negative habit again and you strengthen the neural connections that help keep you thinking negatively. So funny, it becomes a fight to think positively. It's a choice in a fight sometimes, but the cool thing is is if you if you carry out that fight a couple times it gets way easier. Like I'd say it's probably hard for two runs probably hard for two, but third you're starting to starting to get easier, to think positively.

And then the same goes for the the third the third third of how I often divide up runs for runners. And oftentimes that third third, I ask them to remember a time when they were tougher than they thought they could be. You know, they're like, if they're a runner who races, maybe they remember back to that race where they really dug in and they they were braver than they thought they could be. And they literally like will either pretend to pick up that version of themselves as like a companion out there with them or they'll pretend to be that person in the moment. You know, they'll kind of choose to embody that part of themselves.

And again, certainly that moment can also be a bit of a fight, but I do stress that you fight with you do you commit you do everything you can use to hold it even if it feels goofy and even if it feels fake, you'll reap the benefits in the future.

That's great. Yeah. A lot of that, I mean, I haven't practiced, in that method specifically, but, some of those thoughts, you know, as I think back to some of my training and runs, I wow, definitely the gratitude is coming to it, especially in really long runs because you gotta you have a lot of time to think out there. And, yeah, you find your mind wandering all over the place, but then you you start thinking about, you know, something you are thankful for. You're thinking about your family or something.

And then all of a sudden, yeah, all of a sudden your effort seems a bit, easier. Yeah. You just that positive mindset, all of sudden your run switches like that and it's like it's like you've got some newfound energy.

Yep. Absolutely. Yep. It's it's very useful. Gratitude.

Yeah. That's great. So let's move on to the to the next section I wanna talk about and that was mental toughness which you talked a little bit about in in that section and you I read an article you wrote recently, I believe it was in Competitor Magazine and there was a quote in there that I liked. It says where you talked about, I also urge people to explore what toughness means to them.

Yeah.

What does that mean? And you also talked about how mental toughness is teachable and malleable. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on toughness.

Yeah, no, that's a great, that's a fun topic. I've been talking about it a lot right now, least recently, funny how things come up. You know, a bunch of different sources. So, I think that one of the greatest misconceptions about sports psychology, or even about the best athletes, is that their that mental toughness, is always like a real hard tough almost macho kind of response. Know that it's that it's it we've envisioned ourselves of being really brave and hard and forceful or aggressive, like that's what toughness is, or unbothered, you know, like I'm really resilient.

And actually mental toughness, I kind of hate the word honestly, I probably shouldn't have even used the word. It's like resilience is probably a better word. Emotional or mental agility is probably another better word. And the reason I say that is because there's lots of athletes that don't respond to the aggressive, brave, go get them energy behind the word toughness. Lots of athletes, if you make them go be tough and, like, go get that person ahead of you or you get hard on yourself, a lot of times that will, kind of freak out their stress system a little bit and it will have the opposite effect than what you're seeking.

Like, too much tension of any kind can tell the body that things are not okay and that this level of exertion is not okay and that we ought to slow down. So I find that lots of athletes we can't just say be be tougher, you know, be braver, be more resilient, take the pain, you know, the pain cave, all those kinds of things. Often, like I find one one strategy that is really useful for some runners is is just to like notice the emotions you're experiencing and sometimes it's just plain noticing them like that's quite a mindfulness approach just noticing them and acknowledging acknowledging them can improve their performance to the extent that like when they when they when you notice emotion and you acknowledge emotion, if you can acknowledge it in a non judgmental way, you kind of you tell your brain that it's not that big a deal, you know, and you you're brain says, oh, oh, I know I'm breathing fast and, my legs hurt a little bit and we're noticing that I'm breathing fast or noticing that my legs hurt a little bit, but we're just observing that like this is doesn't have to be a big deal.

It's oftentimes what happens when we run and and then the brain will relax and the crises will reduce or the severity of the pain or the will will reduce. So oftentimes just acknowledging emotion or acknowledging the physical the physical sensation can help to reduce some reduce the severity and of the emotion or the or the physical sensation that that's enabling somebody to perform better for longer which gets the desired result that we I think often refer to as as mental toughness. And then another strategy that I found really useful is noticing those feelings and even offering yourself some compassion and friendliness for feeling the feelings. You know, like saying, hey, I'm feeling really stressed like I don't know if I can hold this pace the whole way. I don't know if I can finish this run like I'm starting to feel like I can't finish this run and my emotions are getting a little bit unsettled.

Again noticing those emotions and saying, hey, I can understand why you feel this way. You know, you're out here working hard. That's okay. That's a normal response.

So

that response that that can also help to reduce the severity of the distress and again enable performance to be improved or maintained and I would say is another version of mental toughness.

Is the term, grit used interchangeably there or is that something different?

Grit, grit, I would say, grit refers to largely to perseverance despite obstacles or perseverance despite adversity. So so I would say mental toughness, or whatever strategies you learn, are mentally effective for you to prolong your effort or so to be be more mentally tough, those will enable you to be more gritty. Like, gritty is essentially perseverance. Gotcha. Yeah.

And and what are what are the what works for you? Like, how do you find when you the going gets tough in a run or any activity like what what's your go to method to to to get tougher?

So one thing that's been very useful for me is is definitely in advance of of my workouts or my races is breaking up the race and just deciding what my focus is going to be at key parts of the race. So I do use the patience gratitude, tough self. Okay. Myself, when I when I've noticed, like, sometime like, sometimes I've noticed that I might be in a workout or in a race, and my my legs feel okay, and my breathing feels okay. But for whatever reason, I feel like I'm having a little bit of a a mental crisis.

Like, my my brain doesn't think I'm okay. Like, I use the noticing of emotion and offering myself compassion for that emotion. And in fact, I even go as far as in my mind's eye, putting my hand on my own head. Like, on the part of me the the the part that's freaking out, like in all of us, that's just a part that's trying to keep us safe. Like, our brain freaks out because it wants us to stay safe.

It's sensing that our losing homeostasis, we don't have as much oxygen as we normally have. And so it's freaking out because it wants to stop because it is worried we're going to hurt ourselves. So so in my own mind, my mind's eye, I'll literally like put my hand on the head of that part of me and say, hey, that's okay. I know why you're here. We're all good.

Just hang out. It sounds so weird, but honestly that has been that has been such an effective strategy for me, and it's been an effective strategy like variations on that have been a very a very useful strategy for other athletes as well.

I like that a lot. I'm gonna have to practice a lot of these techniques myself on my next few runs. I'll report back to you.

Yeah. And one other thing I should mention actually is, the practice of mindfulness, like mindfulness meditation where you you take a part of the day and you you basically require yourself to keep your attention on something for at least six minutes. Science has shown that if we practice meditation for six minutes a day, it really, really works, on our powers of attention. And I would say that practicing meditation, has helped me to become a whole lot more emotionally aware. So for example, I think practicing meditation has given me the ability to when I'm out there running be able to notice that my legs are fine and my breathing is fine and the freak out I'm having is mental

as opposed

to physical. So I encourage I encourage everyone to practice mindfulness meditation.

I am on day 16 in a row of meditation, doing ten minutes, getting up a bit earlier and getting up or just doing ten minutes of meditation. And I've I've I've dabbled in meditation previously, but, I've decided I'm going to really give it a good go now. Anyway, so my day 16 in a row and I must say, like, I already notice differences in the way I can focus, especially at work and stuff. And, yeah, it's just all it's hard to explain to people, but I just feel like I'm always in this state or or more in a state of mental clarity, if that makes sense.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's it's a really it's an extraordinary practice. So simple. So simple, not easy to do in that, you know, you no doubt you've experienced a little bit of mind wandering, right?

Mhmm.

For sure.

Yep. But, it's so beneficial for the the little amount it really takes. Right? Like your ten minutes. So, yeah.

No. Good for you. That's awesome.

No. I yeah. I'm really enjoying it and I'm gonna I'm gonna keep it up because I'm seeing the the benefits already. So, anyway, so yeah, I'll I'll put the link to a couple of apps and the show notes for people, that I use which are helpful and I'm sure, I mean, perhaps you have some to recommend as well. What do you use for your meditations?

Yeah. I, you know, I, I have used there's a I'm always a fan of three things. So I have used, there's a there's a the UCLA Meditation Center has, a link on their website to a number of different types of meditation. There's there's about seven different different types and, yes, if you were to Google UCLA mindfulness meditations, there's free meditations that you can, don't know if you can download them. You probably you might be able to.

You can access them for free on that. I use I use that. I also use other kind of weird things like, I will I will go out for a walk and I'll try to notice five five things I hadn't noticed before in that area. Four, I'll try to hear four things I hadn't heard or three things and work through the senses like five things I see, four things I hear, three things I touch, two things I smell, and one thing I taste. So like to run through the senses, that I use that one.

I also will go for a walk and try to notice where I feel the wind on my body as well. So these are just weird like these are just really the thing with meditation is to require yourself to focus on something and when you notice your brain drift away, you just kindly bring it back to that focus. That's gonna key. So, for sure that the links are definitely useful and I use those as well. But if you don't have time to listen to a link, you do have a ten minute walk from one place to another, focusing on like what you hear and just naming what you hear or, feeling the wind where it touches you and noticing that like those are also meditative practices.

Great. And I'll put a link to the UCLA meditations, for everyone to take a look at as well. So let's move on. I want to talk a little bit about, setbacks and for people coping, injuries or a common common occurrence, amongst new runners or people that get, you know, frustrated with, reoccurring injuries, and they they can't keep up their running. So can you talk a little bit about some, strategies to help people cope when there's, a failure, setback or perhaps a running injury?

Yeah, for sure. So I think the first thing to realize is that injuries truly are part of sport. Like, oftentimes when we get injured, we feel like we've done something wrong, we're a bad athlete, something has happened that shouldn't happen, but it's just it's a % part of sport. So just as much as running and the joy of it and getting fitters part of sport, sometimes getting hurt and taking time off is part of sport. So tips for that is to recognize that that it is part of sport.

You're not alone. I do I spend time around a lot of very good runners here at Flagstaff and the frequency which they're in, here at Hypo two getting treated for something that they're struggling to, you know, to maintain or they're having to take time off or they're coming back from something is so normal. It's there's so many athletes in that space. So so know you're not alone. Know that one of the things I always tell athletes is that if you have once you've achieved a certain level of fitness, getting back to that level of fitness is takes less time than the first time you got there.

So even if you've been running for two years and now, man, you can finally run 10, you know, 10 k and you now have to take a month off because of something and you don't know that you can still run 10 k, like you will you will not take you another two years to able run 10 k again. Like the the time the time will be much shorter, like you'll you'll come back much faster. I would say sometimes sometimes setting some goals for dealing with your injury is a good way to mentally cope. So, sometimes what happens is we're running and we have a goal of, you know, I want to run a five ks in two weeks or in, mean, should I say two months, and I'm going to run this many miles, this many kilometers a day in order to attain that goal, but then but then we get hurt and all of a sudden we we can't have that goal anymore. Maybe it would be, all right, I have a I've gone to the physio and I have a goal of doing five reps of this exercise that, they've given me and I want to see if I can do 10 in a week or something like that.

Like you can create a target to work towards that is healthy, and helps you to yet become healthy again, creating targets that you're that you're able to, that you're able to do and still heal can be a great way to direct focus. Those are those are probably some of my better, my more frequent strategies for dealing with injury.

Yeah, that's great. And I wanna ask you too now, is there anything current any current science or research that, you're reading about or following that really excites you right now as it relates to the psychology of sport?

Oh man, you know I've got to confess, I'm not as current as I'd like to be. But but the more recent stuff that excites me about the

Or or any or anything that's perhaps not talked about a lot that excites you that that people won't read about in, you know, blogs or Runner's World or something?

Yeah. Well, I can tell you I can tell you one thing. Let me see. I I'm I've been working on some research of my own. It started out as my master's thesis and it's still it's just continuing to plug away at it.

And and I have a hypothesis that athletes who view the most challenging moments of their sport with a love of challenge, like eagerness to do the hard stuff, going to progress more quickly than athletes who meet that moment with dread or anxiety. And there's a few reasons for that. So so one of those reasons is that when we we engage in an activity with positive emotion, our brain actually is is what's called it's more plastic, which means it's it's easier to shape. And anytime we learn a new skill, it involves changing of our brain structure. Like, brain grows neural circuitry and changes every time we learn and improve new skills.

So, if we can make our brain even more changeable, the theory is that our brain will change more quickly. So, I do in my research, which is on runners, both collegiate and elite runners, my hypothesis has been that the athletes who report loving the challenge of their sport will have gotten faster, faster than those who don't report loving their sport so much, and I have found evidence to support that. The study is still ongoing. It's very much, there's way more work to be done, But, yeah, definitely when I compare the professional runners that I've that I've studied to the collegiate runners, they they have a statistically have statistically significant higher likelihood of describing the moments of highest exertion using positive words, and the college athletes have a statistically higher likelihood of using words like nerves, fear, dread, tension, guilt, like negative words associated with those moments of highest exertion. So I really think for anybody who's interested in in improving and improving as fast as they can, making the effort to love the hard stuff, however they find they can love the hard stuff, they'll see greater gains.

Wow. That's interesting just the the the large discrepancy between the pro athletes and college athletes because college athletes are fairly accomplished and motivated athletes themselves. So I mean, it'd be interesting to see the difference between a, you know, your day to day runner compared to a college athlete then compared to a pro athlete. So it's quite a wide spectrum, I would presume.

Yeah. I I you know what? It would be really interesting. I haven't looked at day to day athletes, but I would love to. Like, that that would be a really interesting comparison.

That's cool. So so I wanna be conscious of your time. So I just got a couple more questions here. One being, so this is a typical avatar, I guess, of someone in, listening to the podcast or, that's on my email list. It'd be like perhaps a mom who works, who's got, a couple kids and, they're generally strapped for time but really wants to start running regularly, what would you say to this person?

And it could be from this from the sports psychology perspective about, you know, what would you say to this person to get them ready and and and amped up to go?

Yeah, I think I think my strongest pieces of advice is that something is better than nothing. So if they if they're saying, man, I really want to be a runner. I really want to go. I want to run five k a day. But they're finding that they just can't commit that much time to it.

So those people get really frustrated with themselves and they just stop. You know, if they can't do their whole distance, they're just not going to do it. But a % something is better than nothing. So if two k is possible when five k isn't, but do the two k, do the one k, go for a fifteen minute walk, like do the something. That is that is one real, I would say strong piece of advice.

Gosh, that yeah. I'm trying to think what else I would say.

No. That's a good one right there.

I would also say be easy on like, try to be easier on yourself. Like, one of the things that I see with with athletes that have to work, you know, like like most people have to work, those who are not professional runners. Sometimes demands of life you like, the demands of life will really get in the way of getting in that whole workout that you want to do. And, people get stressed about missing a workout or having to shorten it or something along those lines. And I think we always want our sport to be a joy.

So maybe this is along the same lines of just something is better than nothing. And if you have to miss once in a while, you you you're probably better to just miss a run than to do it at 10:00 at night and hate it, know, and make yourself way too tough, really really tired. Like don't be afraid to take days off, don't be afraid to miss a run, don't be afraid to shorten things for the the good of your health and the love of your running, I guess is what I would what I would say.

Yeah. No. I totally agree. And I always tell people don't try to fit runs in that you've had to miss because of sickness. Like, don't try to squeeze them in or add them in somewhere else.

Just just accept it. It's fine to miss a workout and don't try to squeeze it in, you know, back to back with another run-in your program just because you missed a run because that's how injuries happen when you start, you know, adding, you know, fiddling out with a program that's set up to help you avoid injuries and increase your your fitness gradually. So, yeah, don't don't fret about any missed workouts for sure.

Exactly. Yeah, definitely. I gotta say anecdotally, like anecdotally when I the the athletes that I know that are excellent, like some world class athletes, and then I also know some that are almost, well, you know, almost that good or just or say just very good. It's never say just very good. But I I I have not studied this, but it has been my impression that the best of the best, they just have a real grounded energy about them and they make smart choices for their health.

If they have, like you're saying, if they have to miss a run, they miss a run. If if they're not feeling well, they might take the day off. Whereas those next those next best, there's sometimes, a very obsessive rigid tension about them. And I've sometimes wondered if that prevents them from being as good as they could be. No.

I've I've sometimes wondered that. Like, the ones that are just completely obsessive and will not miss something. I I I've wondered that. And it's just it's very it's just anecdotal. It's just from hanging out with lots of lots of athletes and yeah, I've lived but I've what I've noticed is that the the best make wise decisions for their long term health and well-being.

I like that. Are there any, online resources or books that you would recommend for people who want to dive a bit deeper into this topic?

Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. Let's see. I like like the the the Macmillan running site, which I think has lots of good information.

I've done some writing for them. Also, there's a there's a fellow called Alex Hutchinson who has a website called sweat sweat science. He's on Twitter. Has some very always has some very interesting up to date things. That's probably where to go to get current.

That's where I should go to get current.

Yeah. It's funny about Alex. He, his name comes up often on my podcast and he actually lives in my neighborhood. I see him periodically.

Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah. That's cool. That's really cool. Yeah.

That's really cool. I know I really like his stuff. There's another there's another podcast I I enjoy that talks about mastery in all sorts of different sports. It's called Finding Mastery by a sports psychologist called Michael Gervais and he talks about, expertise in numerous wide reaching fields like not just sports. Very interesting.

I think I yes. Someone mentioned that to me the other day as well. And, does he do some work with the Seattle Seahawk?

Yeah. He does. Yep. Yep.

Okay. Same guy.

Yep. Same guy. And then, books. There's one that like there's one that's really fascinating. You might people might really enjoy that I really enjoyed.

It's called the rise of Superman, and it talks about, the experience of what's called flow state And flow state is is is basically the name for it's the believe it or not, flow state is the scientific name for what we refer to as being in the zone. So so those days when things just feel amazing and wonderful, And it's something that's common across all all activities really, but it's used a lot. It's referred to a lot in sport and basically what flow state is is a % focused on the task at hand without distraction. But the book, The Rise of Superman, it talks a lot about extreme sport. Every so often it gets pretty grandiose.

So as someone who who is quite strictly educated in, science and how you say things, so every sometimes I cringe at that, the book the book on the whole is wonderful and there's a lot of science in it. There's some terrific stories and it really, opens a person's mind to the possibilities of what we can accomplish in flow state or basically in a state of % focus. So yeah, the rise of Superman. There's a great book by Terry Orlik, which is old now, but a great book called Psyching for Sport, which it provides great like great explanations for how our brain works in sport and also some real useful exercises and worksheets. So that's a good one.

Gosh, there's a bunch I could tell you. I I have like I like to read a lot that is a little bit outside not like, outside the field of sports psychology, but still very relevant. Like, the field of positive psychology, basically the study of flourishing and and and achievement has produced research in, like, grit, for example, like you mentioned, and, creativity and, original ideas. So, like, I've enjoyed books. There's the book Grit by Angela Duckworth, which is really good.

The book, there's a book, Peak, written by Andres Erickson, who basically the founder of the research on expertise. I say the founder, a very influential researcher on the field of expertise. There's books on on developing mastery and creativity by a fellow called Scott Kaufman. They're called Ungifted and Wired to Create. So I I admit, I I really I tend to gravitate towards books that they rely on the periphery of sports psychology.

And then, there's a wonderful book. I really am also a fan of mindfulness and eastern philosophy and the use of eastern philosophy for sport and to enhance I really think that's where a lot of performance enhancement in the mental side for sport is headed. There's a really cool book called Radical Acceptance, which is much more it's much more therapy oriented, but as you read through it you can imagine how it would increase somebody's emotional, agility, give you approaches to things you might never have thought of.

Who's the author of that book?

Tara Brach. Yeah. T a r a b r a c h. Yeah. Those are those are more like my more recent readings, all of which I would say you could draw you could draw useful.

You could use useful information for sport from those things.

Yeah. Not even just sport, perhaps just life in general. Many of those.

For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that's fantastic. Well, Shannon, listen, I wanna thank you for your time and expertise and, where can people connect with you online if they want to, reach out and touch base or just perhaps follow, some of your your writing, etcetera?

Yeah. You know, as I mentioned to you, the content I should say this content on my website is a little bit out of date, mostly because I work really closely with a couple of organizations. So to connect with me. Oh, and you know what, one thing I'd really like to mention too, I do work for a Canadian company called B78, which is a Jasper Blake's triathlon company. So I'm also associated with B78.

So information and contact information for me can be found on B78 website. It can also be found at hypo2sport.com, which is my American company I work for here in Flagstaff. My own website is sweetperformances.wordpress.com, I believe. And one of my great passions, I guess, is writing about sport, I guess with a bit of a philosophical bent, and I I I would say the most up to date part of that website is the tab that says personal thoughts on sport. I do I write for that quite frequently, and so I would recommend people check that out.

The best way to reach me if anybody wants to reach me is my email which is Shannonhypo2sport dot com. Yeah, I'm happy to answer questions. I do consultations over the phone and yeah, I really if anybody has any questions or need help, please feel free to reach out and happy to talk about this.

That's awesome. Well, again, thanks very much. I'd like to personally thank you and I'm sure the listeners will really appreciate and, take action with some of the, advice you've provided today. So, thanks again, Shannon.

Cool. Thank you. Thank you very much, Far.

Thanks for listening to the Healthinomics Podcast at w w w dot healthinomics dot com.