The None to Run Podcast

Welcome to episode 18 of the Healthenomics Podcast. I'm your host Mark Kennedy coming at you from Toronto, Ontario. Thanks again as always for listening. This is lesson number two of my Get Started Running series. Be sure to sign up if you wanna join my five part email course to help you get started and discover the enjoyment of running.

Head over to Healthenomics.com/18 to sign up. In this lesson or podcast, I chat with Greg Lehman. Greg is a physiotherapist, chiropractor, strength and conditioning specialist, spine and exercise biomechanics expert. In the clinic, Greg focuses on running injury mechanics, sport injuries, persistent pain problems, and post surgical rehabilitation. Greg completed his master of science in kinesiology from the University of Waterloo under the supervision of doctor Stuart McGill.

In this podcast, you'll learn why strength training is just as important for beginners as it is for elite runners, the types of strength training exercises new runners should be focusing on, is stretching beneficial, and if so, when's the best time to stretch, what you can do to improve your running form with some specific drills to practice, how to distinguish between good pain and bad pain, the most common injuries Greg sees in new runners, and the best practices to help you avoid injury, and Greg's general tips for new runners to help stay motivated and injury free. Let's go chat with Greg.

Welcome to the Healthinomics podcast. Boosting your health and fitness IQ one episode at a time. And now your host, Mark Kennedy.

Okay. Hi there, Greg. Thanks for joining us tonight.

Oh, you're welcome. Good to be here.

Good. So tonight I wanted to focus a bit on new runners and things that new runners should think about and focus on for getting started. So I wanna talk about, I guess, first off, let's just talk about strength training. Know strength training has really helped me become a better runner, a stronger runner, a more efficient runner, and also a bit more bulletproof, if you will. So I just wanna get your thoughts on, you know, is strength training really important, especially for new runners?

Is it important for them as it is elite runners? Let's just start there.

Oh, absolutely. It's just as important for the elite. The most important thing, of course, is just to run and then slowly build up as much as you can. But if you're going to do anything that's secondary to running, then it should be strength training.

Okay. And, what what type of strength strength training are we talking here for for new runners? What are some some exercises that they should focus in on?

So I I believe everything that, the core gets pumped up a little bit too much. You know, if you open up Runner's World or Running Times or any Internet, everyone loves to talk about the core. But the the basics of just squats and lunges and one leg squats and leg swings. You know, those should be the fundamentals. And then you start adding or deadlifts, and you start adding little extra core exercises on top of that, like planks and and bridges.

But really, really just basics. You can't go wrong with, you know, five exercises in one session where it's just twenty to thirty minutes and you try to just get stronger. At its simplest, if you look at what you're missing in your program so running, you're just running slowly and you're doing some speed work and you're building up. And so you're not really working the strength component of the muscles and they need that too. So you gotta train heavy in the gym or build slowly to train heavy in the gym is the idea.

Okay. And then should should the runners be doing these weights or heavy weights on the same days as they run or off days or what do you suggest there?

So probably not before a running workout. It can interfere with your in endurance gains. And you don't wanna get too tired, especially if you're a beginner runner and you're getting started. So it's really safest to do it. You know, if you have an a really easy run-in the morning, you could maybe do in the evening, or you have an easy run.

You do you work you do a strength training workout the day before an easy run. And if you're starting running, most of your runs should be easy anyway. So that should be easy to fit in.

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's great. Yeah, I know like for myself, I've found actually dead lifts and it took me a while to get sort of my form to a point where it was probably, you know, not only safe, but working the correct muscles that should be, but really helped. I always had a history of hamstring problems. And as soon as I sort of got to the point where I could lift a relatively heavy for me, a heavy dad lifted that seemed to really negate any sort of hamstring issues.

Think just primarily because I think I just got stronger, you know, all around. Does that make sense? Or

Oh, absolutely. And we're just publishing a paper on this now where we're arguing that strength training, even if especially with a deadlift where you do it through a full range of motion, is even better for flexibility training than just straight up static stretching. So that that when you every time you have a muscle that feels tight or like it's holding on, strength training is often the the best thing you can do for it. So so any minimal aches and pains, the best thing is to train it. It's almost like you're you are strengthening for sure, but there's some way where you use it and use it a lot.

And then it's like you teach the brain that, you know, it's okay, I'm strong, I can handle this, and it'll relax and then that pain will eventually go away.

Interesting. Yeah, that's great. Let's talk a bit about stretching then. I know that's a hot topic as well, as you said, you know, the media pumps up the core. Right now it seems to be the trend is that people shouldn't be static stretching before exercising or going on a run and maybe perhaps doing a dynamic workout.

Can shed some light onto that for us?

Ten years ago, I was one of those guys saying, Stop stretching all the time. Maybe fifteen years ago because I didn't like to stretch, So I went and found research to confirm my bias. But and there's a lot. That was so the late nineties, we had a lot of research saying don't bother to stretch. So it's it's nothing new to say this.

It's just popular now. But then as the research has come in, and this is what our review was just on, it if if you stretch for less than forty five seconds, like holding holding it in total for forty five seconds, you you don't really lose that much strength or power. And and and you don't even lose a lot to begin with. These these are negligible amounts of of a loss in strength and power after stretching. We're talking, like, two to 8%.

And as for stretching before you run, it's the same thing. Like, the the research is very mixed. Some people will lose a little bit of endurance, but a lot of people don't change anything at all. I'm a bit more agnostic now and live and let live. If you love stretching and it's something you've always liked to do before you exercise, you can probably go ahead and keep doing it, and you're not really gonna lose a lot of performance.

But on the other hand, if someone's telling you you need to stretch all the time and you're not gonna be a good runner cause you don't stretch, well, you don't need to listen to them either. You can you can get away with just a good warm up. And you and if you want, you could stretch after, but even that, you don't don't need to either, surprisingly.

Interesting. Now what about, when if someone does, you know, as you say, they enjoy the static stretching, should they be doing it after they've, warmed up the muscles a little bit?

Yeah. Absolutely. But believe it or not, like, I mean, I taught I used to teach gymnastics, and that's what we can't stretch a cold muscle. But I think there's even a a little bit of research you actually can, and it's not really gonna hurt you if you're just gently holding a stretch.

Mhmm.

And there are a few famous strength coaches in The States where surprisingly, he has all of his elite athletes stretch cold. They don't even warm up.

Wow.

There's not a a lot of research research on that. The whole the whole point is it probably doesn't doesn't matter, either way. I mean, the means that stretching makes people flexible have a little to do with how warm the muscle is. It's it we the biggest thing that we think is that you're training the brain when you're stretching.

Mhmm.

Where the brain says, okay. I'm gonna let you go a little bit farther rather than making really big changes in what the muscle is made of, which is a bit of a surprise to most people.

Yeah. No. Interesting. I always found that as well, like, to some extent, you know, before I go for a run, I do I do like to stretch a little bit just because I don't know. I just part of it's mental, think, me.

It just kind of puts me in that I guess because because I was used to it as, you know, growing up in sports, playing sports as a kid, that's what you did. So for me, it's kind of a mindset thing. Like, it gets me me ready to to do activity from a mental standpoint.

Oh, yeah. That that that makes complete sense to me.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because it's it's probably at the worst, there's a tiny, tiny percentage loss, and who cares when in a training program? Like, it doesn't matter if you lose a little bit on a run, like a in a training run. It's it's the same reason why you can you can run without eating all day. I mean, you're not gonna run your best, but it's probably a good thing as part of your training.

Mhmm. But, yeah, if you like it, I I don't tell anyone to change anymore if that works for them. Yeah. The body's a lot smarter than we we give it credit.

Yeah. Exactly. Now let's, just shifting gears a bit. Let's talk a little bit about running form. And, again, there's a lot, you know, people talking about form and especially as this minimalism trend has sort of come and I don't know.

It seems like it's it's going away a little bit, but

A little bit. Yeah.

Yeah. It's still there, but the there's a lot of talk about running form. So does running form actually matter, or should should you just run how what what feels natural, you know, provided you guess you've got adequate range of motion?

Yeah. Probably both. I think a lot of people will figure it out on their own the more they run. Mhmm. And that does seem to be the research too.

There's only a couple studies on that where their their gait will change over time, and they'll they'll naturally learn to be more efficient. Where the problem with with that might be is if you do wear a a bigger, bulkier shoe, you'll you'll find a way to run that's more efficient because you'll be able to do, like, a big heel strike when you run. And it'll feel okay because you have a big, big, bulky shoe on. But that might be like, we have a little bit of data showing that that big stride that you can do with big shoes on because it doesn't hurt may be a bit related to future injuries. It's certainly correlated, like, the type of impact that goes up through the leg.

It's certainly a bit correlated with some injuries. You're not doomed. That's for sure. That's what's amazing about the body. There's people if you just run slowly over time and progress your training, you can have a massive heel strike and not have any issues.

But then there's a subset of people. So I I I think it's a bit a bit safer, to to watch, like, the glaringly, bigger flaws that we look for. The and the biggest one is an overstride with a big heel strike.

Mhmm. And then general running form, as you say, I mean, I think it's something your body just tends to figure out the more you run, what feels natural and and efficient to to you.

Yeah. For sure. I I I think people can get help with a couple cues. Like, what I try to teach is sort of a a actually a springy, bouncy stride.

Mhmm.

Because which surprises people. People will say, oh, you can't be bouncing. You're wasting energy. But bouncing is unless they're unless you're, like, leaping and frolicking through the air, that's different than a springy stride. Like a springy and there is a little bit of data that a bouncier runner, like where you go up and down more, is actually more efficient.

And the argument there is that you're running your legs are like springs. Like if you ever watch a kangaroo, like, they're kinda beautiful. They're so efficient, and they but they're hopping and they're springing. Yep. And you see that in really elite runners, but not just when they're running fast.

When they're running slow, there's, like, this crisp sharpness and a pop to their their stride. So I think there's something we can do to actually facilitate that initially when we're running. Usually, that's a quicker step where you're almost pushing into the ground and you kind of pop off of it, and that'll take care of the overstride as well.

Is there any particular drills or exercises you do to to teach people that?

Yeah. One would be to like with all the smart watches we have, you can monitor your cadence.

Mhmm.

So for the average person, say you're starting running, you're running a six minute kilometer, it probably should be running more than a 70 steps per minute. That's that's an easy way. In in terms of drills, you that's why I like strength training and plyometrics, just skipping and hopping. And then classic drills, you have to get a running coach to show you are like the a's and b's and c's that I don't know if you if you ever do those.

But I'm familiar with those. Yeah.

Yeah. I teach a lot of people do that. That's part of the warm up. So warm up, we have them do is a's and b's and c's and then some skipping and this feeling like you're just popping off the ground and driving from your hips and the it's sort of kinda hard to explain.

Yeah. I'll make sure I put a few links to some videos or maybe you've got some good videos that I can throw up on the blog post with this podcast.

Oh, yeah. There's a ton. If you just have people Google As and Bs and Cs and all those, we kinda make it more complicated than it needs to be, but skipping it is the idea that and this is the idea where we wanna sometimes be a little stiffer in our calves than looser, which surprises a lot of people. But it's that, more quicker runners have stiffer calves.

Yeah. That's good. Now I wanna talk a little bit too about, pain. Good. Yeah.

And I know that you you like talking about pain. You know, I follow you on Twitter. I want to talk a little bit about, I guess it's probably and I'm guessing I've been running for a long time, so I haven't been a new runner for a long time, but new runners often can get discouraged because of pain, you know, whether it's an injury coming on or just simply the loading of the muscles and joints, something they haven't done in a while. So can you talk a little bit about the difference between, I guess, good pain and pain to do with exercise, and then pain that may be an indication of an injury coming on, and how people can better decipher their pain?

Yeah. That's a great question, and it's something we work on. It's and I'll it's it's tough. I mean, because you're gonna be sore if if you're a new runner. You're gonna press on, like, the inside of your leg bones, and there's gonna be muscles in there, And those will be sore for sure, especially maybe if if if you're just a a little bit overweight and you're you're learning how to run.

You're gonna be sore, you know, the day after. You can you can feel it all over. If you go from running four kilometers to running eight, you know, once you get over seven and it's so much more than you used to, you're gonna be sore during your run, and you'll you'll feel it all over. So that type of soreness is normal. You're allowed that sort of two, three, four out of 10 of achiness.

If you start running and it gets worse during a run and it doesn't go away with stopping running and resting for a bit, I mean, that's a that's a problem. That's sort of like that bad pain where you have to use and it feels different. Know? It's just a lot more than three, four out of 10. Where you wanna be most concerned with with starting running is if you press on a bone and it's like a very local sharp small point that's really sore, it starts to get sore during your run, and then it's again, it stays sore throughout the run and you even feel it later.

Those are are are big ones to watch. And, you know, the little aches and pains, you shouldn't really be feeling them too much at rest after you've been running for a for a a few weeks. I mean, it's normally be sore when you're going downstairs, but the big one is that bony tenderness, because that could be a stress fracture that you wanna get get, checked out for sure.

Okay. And what are any any tips that you have to help alleviate some of the the soreness just from the the training and increase the loads on the on the body?

Not after it's been done. I mean, that that I think all my colleagues would get mad at me. Right? Because we all think we can help people recover, but it's there's no magic cure. Like, there's no lotions, massages, the things like that.

They can help little aches and pains, but they don't really facilitate any healing. There's no ointments, baths. Those things don't really matter. They just sort of mask it a bit. I mean, it's the best thing is smart training, and that's slowly slowly building up and listening to your body.

And when you need a rest day, it's okay to take one or just run half of what you were normally gonna do. I mean, that that that's the only way to recover well. And then in general, you just need to be healthy all over. Mhmm. I mean, he and I don't I don't just mean, like, what you're eating.

I mean, your your your sleep. You need to be emotionally healthy. All of these things of just, like, this whole human, being needs to be as good as it can be. Because a lot of pain is it can manifest due to other factors too. Often people's back goes out, you know, when they, you know, having a stressful time at work or maybe it's the anniversary of something they're they're grieving.

So you have to be cognizant of all those things as well.

Yeah. For sure. What are the most common injuries you see, for new runners, when they coming into your clinic?

Is the inside of the shins for the new runners. That's the it's like the calf is the thing that everyone gets and the was but it's not the calf. It just feels like it's the calf. What happens when you start running that's different than everything else is your bone bends on on the inside.

Okay.

It goes into a bit of a tension. It it bends inwards, and your bone is like, what the hell are you doing? And it it takes a long time to adapt. I mean, you know, fractures take six weeks to a year to really grow. And so when you're when you're running, you're you're you're building new bone.

First, you're breaking it down, which happens all the time, and then you're you're you're building it back up, and and you'll get sensitized. So that's the big one. That's why you really need to go slow. And it's also normal to have that type in there for a while.

Okay. So as you say, it's it's normal for that, but just smart training going building up gradually is, is the way to go and help potentially just, avoid that or minimize that that pain.

Oh, and build up gradually and don't follow a program that everyone else follows if you don't feel it's right for you. Yeah. Those programs are all based on averages, they're trial and error, and they don't they don't work for everyone. When I started running, I really eased into. I couldn't even do the the running room, program.

It was too aggressive for me.

Well, I made them a state.

I was doing three in ones and two in ones, and I was relatively fit cardiovascular wise, but my body wasn't ready or my connective tissue wasn't ready for it. So that's the problem too. Runners are gonna start feeling better six to eight weeks into a program, And they're gonna wanna run harder because their heart and lungs can handle it, and they gotta hold themselves back a bit as well.

Yeah. As as I was saying, I when I was training for my first marathon a few years ago, I was, I mean, of in the same boat I, you know, I'd always ran and not to that distance, but you know, I was always fit played a lot of sports and yeah, my cardio was felt great, but I just took a random program off runner's world and said, I'll just follow this. And, you know, I think three weeks into the program as I ramped up kilometers, there I was in the physio clinic with both plantar fasciitis and iliotibial band syndrome.

Awesome. Yeah. That's so true.

Yeah. So again, I was just like, I did too much too soon. It doesn't Yeah.

For you at that point in time.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's great.

So just before we wind up here, is there any other sort of general type advice you would have for anyone? Say a friend comes up to you and says, Greg, hey, listen, I played a bit of sports when I was younger and I I wanna lose a few pounds. I wanna start running. You know, what any sort of just general tips from, maybe a motivational standpoint or or other areas that you would give your, your friend?

Yeah. Don't don't really get into doing any workouts initially. Just get get out and run and get time on your on your feet. Like, we try to force it, I think. That's the big thing.

And find groups. That's the best thing. And get a watch or a track and track your stuff and be really narcissistic. Yeah. That seems to help a lot of people.

Know that it's supposed to hurt. That's the the big things. And don't don't put too many expectations on yourself. That's what I've found that helps the early runners. And it's like it's like smoking.

You know? You're gonna accept the opposite instead of not being able to quit and starting again. You're gonna start, and then you're gonna stop and miss it for a few weeks, and you have to keep trying, and then it finally sticks. That's the big one. So many runners start and stop and start and stop.

Yeah. But I think you're you're totally right, though. There is a point there, you know, once you start and stop the few times where you keep going enough, then all of a sudden it sort of becomes a habit. And then when you don't run, you actually really miss it and you you really need it. You know, obviously there's a balance in there.

I think some people are obsessed a little too much, but, yeah, it becomes Oh,

and I so sorry. I would I don't I don't wanna forget. I would say, you're not supposed to like every run. That's the thing. It's okay to have, like, weeks where it's not like all sunshine and you're running beside butterflies.

It's supposed to suck a lot. Yeah. But You know, you you'll have run where the whole thing isn't that good, or it's really hard the first fifteen minutes. You can't judge any run on the first ten to fifteen minutes. Just get out the door.

If it's the worst day ever, still just try to go run fifteen minutes and then see how you feel after that. It's that consistency is the best for fitness.

Yeah. Once you get out the door, yeah, you don't know what's going to happen. You could think it's going to be a bad run and then and it is for, as you say, fifteen, twenty minutes, but then all of a sudden things change and you feel fantastic. Then you have other runs too where you feel great and then all of a sudden, you're just done and you need to shut her down early. That's happened to me as well.

I end up looking for a subway token going, I got I'm taking the subway home here.

No. I've done that.

Yeah. So okay. Listen. Well, thanks very much for your time and expertise, Greg, and I'll make sure I well, where can people find you online and some of your work and follow-up you're up to?

So my I have two websites. One's the body mechanic C a, and that's more sport. And the other one's pain physiotherapy, which is more pain. And then, I'm at two clinics in towns, the the Urban Athlete and, MedCam in in Toronto, of course.

Perfect. Well, I'll make

sure Twitter and all those things.

Yeah. I'll I'll I'll link to to all those links for your clinics and your sites and and your Twitter and and all that stuff. So anyways, thanks very much, Greg.

Oh, you're welcome.

Thanks for listening to the Healthinomics Podcast at www.Healthinomics.com.